HomeAccueil / Hub Talks – Mary Wiens in Conversation with Sheldon Kennedy and Steve Orsini

Hub Talks – Mary Wiens in Conversation with Sheldon Kennedy and Steve Orsini

November 15, 2017 • 49 min read

Mary Wiens explored with guests Sheldon Kennedy and Steve Orsini the importance of integrated decision-making. Sheldon Kennedy shared his experience in bringing governments, public and private sector partners together to work collaboratively to influence policy change and improve the way child abuse is handled. Steve Orsini discussed transformative efforts underway within the Ontario Public Service to deliver integrated services to meet the service needs in communities. The conversation explored the challenges and opportunities for partnerships to find improved outcomes for the people of Ontario.

Transcript

Presenter:
Good morning everyone. It’s a great pleasure at welcome you to day 2 of our Community Hub Summit. [00:00:30] I hope everyone is ready for full day of hard and I say hard but I am told important work, and I do believe that a very-very important conversation is shaping up today again. The moderator this morning is Marry Wiens and I am sure you’ve all heard her on CBC Metro Morning. Marry is an award winning journalist [00:01:00] and producer and it is great that she could join us today, thank you Marry. Also our panelist, Sheldon Kennedy, Sheldon is a former NHL player, who has been instrumental in bringing governments, public and private sector partners together to work collaboratively to influence policy change and improve the way child abuses handle and [00:01:30] our next panelist, Steve Orsini. Steve was appointed Secretary of the Cabinet, Head of the Ontario Public Service and clerk of the Executive Council and it is a great pleasure to work with him to make Ontario a better place. This morning our panelists will talk about the importance of integrated decision making. The importance of bringing governments, public, and private sector partners together to make change to improve the [00:02:00] way child abuses handle. Steve will discuss transformative efforts in the OPS to deliver integrated services to meet the service needs in communities and we will all be better-off for having shared in their vision and experience, so I say have a great session and thank you for your commitment for building a better world. Have a great day everyone. [00:02:30]

Ms. Wiens:
Thanks so much, Minister, welcome everyone, I am going to plunge right in to get the conversation going. Sheldon Kennedy of course is a name that will be familiar to many of you by now because his story has been so — He has told his story so eloquently and I know Sheldon you won’t want to talk about all the details again but I think where we really do still want to hear part of your story is in [00:03:00] the moments when looking back when you were a young, a young hockey player, sexually abused by your coach in junior hockey feeling increasingly isolated, looking back what were the signs when an adult around you should have been able to pick up that something was terribly wrong and step-in even though you yourself couldn’t talk about it — What are those moments?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, good morning everyone. Let’s dig in here.

Mr. Orsini:
There is no warming up —

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah right on. Well, I mean, I think when I look back on it now on and hind sight it’s 2020, but I mean you know I look back on it and from the time I was a kid that loved to be involved in anything and everything and I was a kid [00:04:00] that did okay at the school, not great but I did okay and I started failing out of school and I started getting arrested, I was in youth detention and I started acting out, I was a cutter, I started —

Ms. Wiens:
A cutter?

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah, I was —

Ms. Wiens:
At a cutting class?

Mr. Kennedy:
— self harming and so to me there is lots of signs and I think kids tell in many-many ways —

Ms. Wiens:
You also mentioned [00:04:30] one moment that struck me when we talked once was about being 16 and showing up at the school drunk in the morning, tell me about that?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, I am a drunk that’s for sure. Well, I mean, you know I would, if I look at my behavior, I mean, I am running away from the way I feel and I think I lived with a guidance counselor of the school and nobody ever asked me questions why I am getting home at 5 in the morning from [00:05:00] Graham James’ house and I didn’t know how to tell because this individual was the king of the community and who is going to believe me and I had never even ever heard this stuff before so who is going to believe me and you know and I thought that what I learned in the school was that be careful of the white van that’s cruising around town because they’re going to get you and the reality is that you know we’ve done over 6,000 child abuse investigations in under five years in Calgary and 98% of those kids an older abuser and half of them are abused in the home [00:05:30], so the safest place for them is their schools or community organizations or wherever it might be and hence the reason why we need to have the tools to understand if these kids and you aren’t trusted out at all in their life and they disclose to you, do we know what to do.

Ms. Wiens:
— and you had a real sort of aha moment right, in 1998, you were rollerblading across the country to raise awareness about this going from one small town to another what happened on that trip [00:06:00] that made you understand the need for a different approach to child abuse investigations?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, we started at Newfoundland and I thought going into this that I was the only person that this had ever happened to and the reason I decided to rollerblade across the country was I was Canada’s news breaker at the year 1997 and I felt that I hadn’t really done anything and so I thought well I better, I probably can make some sort of noise, as I [00:06:30] go across the country, so I quickly learned, I wasn’t the only one impacted by this, but I think one of the things that was glaring for me, as I was getting disclosure after disclosure after disclosure is that —

Ms. Wiens:
You said, you said at each location what was it —

Mr. Kennedy:
No we can —

Ms. Wiens:
25 or 30 —

Mr. Kennedy:
We would get 20 disclosures a day and that was quite calm, but what was consistent to me is that you know I think a lot of times, we focus on the incident, we focus on the time, the place, but at the end of [00:07:00] the day right what was very consistent in every story, didn’t matter the age, the gender, the town, the year, it was the impact and when we look at the impact that’s the most consistent place of the conversation was mental health, depression, self-harm, addiction, suicidal ideation and the list goes on —

Ms. Wiens:
Wow —

Mr. Kennedy:
— Right, and then we look at those issues and we look in our community and we have a silo for this, we have silo for that [00:07:30] and we have silo for this and we have silo for that and none of them talk to each other. So, at the end of the day what I was looking at what I learned is that you know what we need to focus on the impact because if we are not doing a good job of the impact, we are going to see them down here and that is kind of — that was 20 years ago, I had a nice mullet and now I have glasses and gray hair, so we’ve been at it for a while.

Ms. Wiens:
Now let’s talk a little bit about what happened then in Calgary [00:08:00] there was, the Sheldon Kennedy Child Advocacy Center opened in February in 2013, there were four founding partners, there was a Calgary Police Service, Calgary Region Child and Family Services, Alberta Health Services and the Alberta Justice, Calgary Crown Prosecutors Office, all onsite, so I want to hear about the morning meetings but first tell me a little bit about how that came into existence, [00:08:30] you are the lead director of that?

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah, I mean, I was asked to go down and speak at the Governor’s dinner in Colorado, with the Governor and then First Lady, I spoke there and they were funding an organization called the Ralston House and it was type of collaborative approach Child Advocacy Center that was more focused on homes within the community, so I am just like well we need this in Calgary, so we came back, we met with the Chief of Police and we said you know we are willing to fund, my business partner and I were willing to fund [00:09:00] the houses in the community but we need them to actually pull together the agencies that ensure willingness to work together and he did a very strategic thing. He pulled together the partner agencies that had the legislative mandate to do this work, so we pulled together Calgary Police, we pulled together health, we pulled together Child and Family and the Crown’s Office at that time, so we started with four and we brought the lawyers in and what we said is that you know what we’re going to put the child and the family in the middle of that table and every decision that [00:09:30] we are making here has to be in the best interest of that child and family. This isn’t about you know personalities, this isn’t about anything other than getting the best outcomes that we can for children and families and that was — and I can tell you that that was probably the, I think for things like that to happen the stars have to have lined, but we have a 120 people, [00:10:00] we now have memorandums of understanding between the whole Calgary Police Child Abuse Unit, we have 30 investigators, Child and Family Services, we have 30 social workers, we have 4 pediatricians from health, we have 25 psychologist, we have the Crown’s Office, we now have memorandums of understanding with Treaty 7 in the five communities within Treaty 7; our partner, Ministry of Education and the RCMP, so every morning each one of those partners sit around the table [00:10:30] and actually share information in the best interest of these children, so that we can look at the whole picture because if we look at it through a justice man’s, we will see a sliver of the picture. If we look at it through a health man, we see a sliver of the picture, etc., and what’s been really identified in this is our ability to understand the need for a community approach and that is huge.

Ms. Wiens:
Steve, I can see you are nodding – yeah come in –

Mr. Orsini:
First of all, I want to thank Sheldon for sharing his story [00:11:00] and we have to pay attention to these stories because they highlights the failure of the system and we lose sight of who were trying to help and I think when we hear from individuals to describe how the system has failed them because of those silos and no one is taking responsibility for integrating the system and what you’ve done has played a leadership role with lived experience, let’s say the system didn’t work, it has to change and I think [00:11:30] one of the key things coming out of this series of meetings and sessions is a Community Hub type structure that focuses on the individual that integrate services that really case manages the individual and I know a lot because of your experiences and others who’ve really starting to change how we approach it and those silos still have their best interest at heart, they just don’t have the right structure, [00:12:00] they don’t have the responsibilities or the accountability to look after the individual in their entirety and so stories like yourself and the solutions that you brought forward is really a moral for the rest of us to follow, so I want to thank you.

Ms. Wiens:
Now, Steve, there is a way in which I want to talk about both these aspects of Community Hubs, one is around how you organize the money, the other one is how you organize the [00:12:30] relationships, so why don’t we start on the relationship side of things, I read one article that talked about Hubs as being networks that that’s what you are creating, so what are the principles of a network in a community then, what are some of the principles that you see around organizing a Community Hub?

Mr. Orsini:
So, I see, I mean, I leave it to the experts, Karen Pitre and others, but the three things I see [00:13:00] are hugely important to the critical success factors of anything whether it’s a center or hub or cluster or a network, is one it has to be citizen focused, based on the user needs, not the program delivery area, we have nineteen ministries delivering youth programs in the province of Ontario and that excludes the municipalities, so we have a lot of good intention programs, but they are not integrated, so the first thing has to be client centered, the second thing [00:13:30] it has to be is integrated services unless they really start to integrate and pull them together, so if you have responsibility for one aspect of an individual but you know that’s necessary but not sufficient, you have to make sure that rest of the services can compliment that and the third one is not every community is same, not every neighborhoods are same and what we are doing is with Community Hubs were case managing a community based on the community needs, based by community participation, [00:14:00] but those three principles run against the grain of our structure.

Ms. Wiens:
Talk about that what it is yeah let’s take a step back and talk about the system of government that we have, you called it the Westminster model, why isn’t working anymore in your mind?

Mr. Orsini:
I think it has some strengths, but it has some deficiencies, ministers play an important role, Minister — this might land me in jail. [00:14:30] The first thing is someone has to have responsibility for an area of expertise, so Correctional Services and public safety, community safety, but what happened is we’ve now become specialized linear silos. What we are seeing now is we operate vertically, but we live horizontally and what we needed to break out that now I will just give a simple example of our educational system [00:15:00]. We had a minister responsible for lifelong learning, it might be different than the minister for education and minister for advance education because the student moving through the system because also the school boards are separate, you move from grade 8 to grade 9, you are in a different world and then we move from grade 12 to post-secondary education, again it’s like the whole different regime and you are not follow-through each step. Many have heard the story of Million Dollar Marie, it’s a story about someone that was a homeless person that when they added up all the cost of this individual hitting the hospital, emergency room at least three times a week —

Ms. Wiens:
Food banks, shelters.

Mr. Orsini:
All the shelters, the detox centers and all that it would’ve been cheaper the conclusion of the story would’ve been cheaper to give the person basic income and a place [00:16:00] to live and some support and that’s where we lose sight of the individual and I actually believe it’s changing, I think the work that the Community Hubs is doing is bringing together people who are now looking at integrating those services and we have great examples and leaders that are paving the way and we need to celebrate people like Sheldon and the work that he is doing and his organization because it’s a lived experience, I’ll give one quick example [00:16:30] —

Ms. Wiens:
Oh lots of examples for —

Mr. Orsini:
So the Center for Social Innovation in Australia has a different model. They are testing it out where families have gone through crisis are involved and trained to counsel other families going through a crisis. They are so much importance on the lived experience that you need to bring in, so the other element I would say you got to have the individual, [00:17:00] the citizen, the patient, the student engaged in the process to finding the problem. Can I give you another example?

Ms. Wiens:
Yes and then I want Sheldon to talk about, I know you need to be careful with anything that identifies children, but I want you to talk about one of the cases that you’ve dealt with at your morning meetings, so sorry yes —

Mr. Orsini:
One other example in the last year’s budget there was a fundamental change made to our Student Assistance Program. We had three programs [00:17:30] before, a grant program, a loan program, and tax credits that it file and get it a year or two or three later and the Deputy Minister of Advanced Education Sheldon Levy went to a low income neighborhood to the high school and asked the students how many here plan to go on to post-secondary education and he was surprised by the number of hands that didn’t go up and if he say well we have all the support but every program [00:18:00] area was delivering it in the way they thought was in the best interest, no one thought to ask the student what was in the best interest, so Ontario was viewed as having among the highest tuition rates in the country, but when you collapse all those programs in upfront grant, it’s now free tuition and it’s all because it’s changed the focus from individual program areas, which all we are working they put their heart and soul in delivering those programs affectively [00:18:30], but it wasn’t oriented around the student.

Ms. Wiens:
So Sheldon, I’ve get you to pick up on that when you look at the person instead of the program what changes in the way that you respond to them, give me a story from your center?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, I mean what changes is your response and your approach to that response because you actually look at the whole picture and I think [00:19:00] just going back to what you know the kind of build off what Steve was talking about, you know about making that shift in the system, I mean basically I believe what we are talking about is the systemic shift. We are built to deal with the outer layer of the onion. The systems were built to react right, so what we are talking about is a real systemic shift and you know yeah our center works in the child abuse area but ends up we deal with high risk pregnant peoples on the streets. We deal with [00:19:30] 0 to 3 months avert units and so forth but basically what we are talking about is real integrated practice and I think the gift of real integrated practice right, so when we talk about real integrated practice, I want to know how you are sharing information, how you are discussing that case not just putting people in the same building, not just co-location and we throw those words out there fancy dancing right. We are co-located, we are multidisciplinary, we are this, we are that but at the end of the day right how are you working together [00:20:00] and to me the gifts of that Marry right like, the gifts of that, the gifts of that and the outcomes that we see with children is we do one interview for the child, they see one face because this is what I know and when I see people in the system right people are resilient, they can handle outcomes but what they can’t handle is the runaround, so if we can eliminate the runaround and really focus on [00:20:30] the real outcomes whatever they maybe right, I think that’s our best gift because we are not re-victimizing people because of the runaround.

Ms. Wiens:
Well, I want to ask you about the numbers that you have around the time spent on paperwork, but before we get to that because that’s one of your markers, but Steve I also want to come to you for that example you gave me of the police chief in Saskatchewan and the trajectory that they could almost chart when it was too late to intervene in a child’s life, you know there are ways of measuring the stuff so Sheldon let’s start on the paperwork, you actually tracked the amount of time when you started the center is that correct and then after it had been functioning as a Hub?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, I think when we look at a lot of the issues that I am sure the majority of you all do great work with [00:21:30] we are dealing with invisible damage a lot of the times, not all of the time but a lot of the times, how do we make sense and how do we paint that picture through strong data and analytics and understand this, so we can actually create if you may a business case because at the end of the day you have to build a strong business case to be able to shift systems and for us, it was about we needed to measure what integrated practice, what difference are we making because we are working together because one of the things is out there is like what’s our first go to [00:22:00]. We need money, we don’t have enough money, we need money, money, money, money right, show me the money right and it’s like and at the end of the day what we’ve created it’s not new money, it’s reallocated money, it’s more affective money, it’s more efficient money and so if we look at one of our social returns on investment study that we did with our joint investigation child abuse team where we had 33 investigators, Calgary Police Child Abuse investigators and 33 social workers, we looked at the hard cost alone, the hard cost alone [00:22:30] and we are saving basically $550,000 a year just on the hard cost, that alone the long-term effectiveness that we are going to have in children and families but it really came down to swapping that 80% of their time of our frontline people were spending navigating their own systems or connecting with another system to actually discuss this case and 20% in the child and family, so you know that’s one of the efficiencies. We looked at —

Ms. Wiens:
What it is now [00:23:00], so was sort of 80% navigating —

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah.

Ms. Wiens:
— their own system.

Mr. Kennedy:
So we are spending 80% of our time on the child and family and 20% on the necessary paperwork actually that has to get done, so what have we created, well yeah we get better outcomes for children and families but the reality is, is we are getting less burn out on our frontline people, are the length of time that people would and our investigators and our police officer would spend in this area to do this difficult work, a child abuse was 2 years, we have now people that are in there [00:23:30] for seven years and we have a wait list to get in there, so we’ve now started to create some expertise and some real knowledge in an area that really wasn’t popular to be in and you know what and when I look at it Marry this is not rocket science, what it is, is about relationships and trust and we have to take the risk to have and create strong relationships and take the risk to do this because you know what were we perfect coming out of the gate, absolutely not, but you know what we consider on tables for 20 years [00:24:00] and talk about and try to evaluate and try to make this thing perfect, but at the end of the day we need to get around the table, we just need to start doing it right.

Ms. Wiens:
Steve, you are nodding what’s going through your mind, as Sheldon is describing?

Mr. Orsini:
Well, I take to heart what you are saying that you will never get, it’s an evolutionary change process. You got to start somewhere and you got to start with the citizen and we have all these rules and requirements [00:24:30] that in reporting so huge amount of reporting and paperwork on activities, not outcomes and the example I’ve referred to you at a prior conversation was a Saskatchewan working with our Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services and the Deputy Minister, Matt Torigian is here and then the Minister herself are champing a transformation similar to Saskatchewan, we have been working with Saskatchewan that if someone early in the chain, so this is where the police say and the Court system by the time they enter our system, it might be too late, so the first sign of where there is truancy, let’s say they are missing school and they are ejected from the school, you got to move upstream. The problem is no one takes responsibility for that. The schools says “They a are problematic at school” out to go; if they are in emergency for whatever reason, we treated them [00:25:30], we need to move to a more client centered case management system, someone has to take responsibility for that but all our rules are we finance that’s sliver this is what Sheldon was talking at the beginning and we got to flip it on it’s head and turn the system around, fund the case management and one other thing we are finding is a lot of our community providers are on the ground are providing wraparound services and that’s where we need to embrace [00:26:00] the role of communities, the non-profit sector, the role of municipalities because they are close to the clients.

Ms. Wiens:
— and now Steve, this also changes the way you allocate money right, so instead of the money being for a particular program or a particular treatment you gave me an example of I think St. Joseph’s in Hamilton was it about you know here we know that it costs this amount of money for [00:26:30] please help me out here, I mean this is —

Mr. Orsini:
There was a lot of good work being done and we have to – through the work of the Community Hubs is champion those success stories. Sheldon the work you are doing is pioneering and we got to celebrate that — what Hamilton done is that we can’t integrate the Health Care System unless we take responsibility for the patient, 5% of the population draws on two-thirds of the health care cost, so there is high needs in the system [00:27:00].

Ms. Wiens:
That’s fascinating, 5% of the population, two-thirds of the health care cost?

Mr. Orsini:
Yes and what they’ve done is provided bundled care, where they get people and they take responsibility that’s the issue that we will have all the right people around the table and what the hospital folks have said is the frontline workers feel more empowered, the personal service workers are working side-by-side [00:27:30] with the physicians and nurses and they feel as part of the team and they are focusing on the individual not their slice of it but is part of the collective oversight of that individual and that’s the key that we have to move towards, is not fund individual programs, the fund the bundling of programs whether it’s through a Community Hub or a Healthcare Hub or a Justice Hub those are the things [00:28:00] that we need to pursue and develop further and there is good work being done, it’s just not being done fast enough from my perspective.

Ms. Wiens:
Well, Sheldon, you were talking about the importance of relationships, so how much of it you know within every group you get different cultures right, the police have their culture, the justice side has its culture what comes first, structuring [00:28:30] the working relationship or building the relationships between the different people who are in the group?

Mr. Kennedy:
Well, I mean change is scary and working with others is scary, so we are dealing with a lot of fear from a lot of agencies and people —

Ms. Wiens:
— and we are used to protecting–

Mr. Kennedy:
No.

Ms. Wiens:
— out on budgets —

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah that’s right and I think that you know really it’s – this is about progress, not perfection. This is about you know bringing people together and what we’ve done [00:29:00] to create strong relationships is really focused on our wellness component, so we have police officers and doctors and social workers doing yoga at noon together right as part of understanding the vicarious trauma that comes with doing this work, so but not only you are doing that but you are creating strong relationships and so really what we’ve done is focused. We are not teaching police how to be better police. We are not teaching social workers how to be better social workers. What we are doing is facilitating strong relationship [00:29:30] building amongst these agencies and by doing that we are getting better outcomes and we are creating better police officers and we are creating better social workers and we are creating better health care workers but at the end of the day really I think what we’re trying to do is to teach people how do you share information and how do you work together because if we look at the culture shift and the culture that we are coming from and the way that you know we look at government and the way government was structured and I can’t tell you [00:30:00] Steve how impressed I am with the shift that’s happening because this is huge but if we look at it, we’ve created a fear to communicate with one another in our communities right, we’ve created that fear, so and we’ve created a fear because we’ve been unfocused in the way that we fund, so we better not work together because if we work together, we might lose our funding but at the end of the day what we’ve learned is that when you work together you increase your funding because you can show better outcomes [00:30:30] and that has been a shift but that had be something that we had to get over because that is the mindset out there.

Ms. Wiens:
Steve, what you said that you wanted to happen faster, how do you speed up this process of Community Hubs?

Mr. Orsini:
I think getting all these people in the room together to build that momentum is one, two getting a government commitment – and the Premier [00:30:56] was here yesterday championing this – it’s hugely important [00:31:00] but it has to come from the communities themselves and I think we have to open ourselves up from government decision making to hearing from the communities and the individuals that say wait a minute this system is not working for us and we recently recruited a chief digital officer for the province of Ontario, now digital is not just putting stuff on the website, it’s changing our whole approach to delivering services around the citizen, [00:31:30] so we are — and there is a ground swell of support within the public service. The Ministry of Children and Youth Services have what they called is Collective Impact, youth at risk where we were moving towards consolidating the programming, I mentioned justice is the situation tables where they are trying to look at early warning within the justice system. There is work being done but we have, all of us have a role to play to champion it [00:32:00], it can’t be someone has to do it, it’s we all have to do it.

Ms. Wiens:
Champions —

Mr. Kennedy:
I just want to, like I think one of the things that I and you know kind of building off again what’s Steve was talking about is that if we look at, and I know I will speak to our community because that’s what I know, we have children services, so if you look at the alphabet, we got A to K and then we got K to Z right. Adult Services — Children Services. But if I look at, if you know, so when we meet with our resolved campaign, [00:32:30] which we have so and you know the Drop in center, the mustard seed, and so forth and we talk to them and we saw “how many people would come through your doors that have been impacted one way or another as a child” and they got well you know huge percentage right, so I said why aren’t we communicating together, so if we look at the way we communicate in our communities, so if we look at the way we would go to our funders, so if you want to end homelessness and that’s here, you are a big donor and you want end homelessness, awesome, right. Well, do we keep just piling money out here, [00:33:00] do we just keep pushing it all here or do we need to say okay, you know what if we really if that’s ultimately our goal there is enough science and knowledge around the pathway that you know what we need to go here, we need to put some money here and we need to put some money here because we need to create that understanding. If we look at our communities and the average citizen in our communities they do not connect the dots right. When we look at the stuff, we look at addiction. When we look at the stuff, we look at homelessness. When we look at the stuff, oh you’ve been [00:33:30] abused as a kid, pick yourself up by the boot straps and let’s get going, but we do know this that 72% of people in detox centers have disclosed early childhood abuse. Kids that are abused are 26 times more likely to experience youth homelessness, 30% higher dropout rates in high school, I mean the list goes on, right. The list goes on, so for me I think it’s really important that we communicate a very consistent message from A to Z, not A to K and then K to Z.

Ms. Wiens:
— [00:34:00] and Steve you talked — and you have talked about that loss of continuity and of a person’s history every time a child goes from grade 8 to grade 9, there is that kind of drop off among the most vulnerable kids just remind me of that?

Mr. Orsini:
Well, we are talking about how to support indigenes education and [00:34:30] this came up in a conversation, do we want to impose our structure with our silos on a community that’s very integrated by their nature and very consultative and really in touch with the community and thinking why don’t we move from grade Junior Kindergarten to grade 18 and not impose our silo structures and I think we have to listen to those that have gone through the system [00:35:00] and hear from them why it didn’t work for them, but the most vulnerable, always are the most susceptible when you fall through the cracks. When you move through the system, these special ed. supports are gone, the knowledge from the guidance counseling in the community is gone because you are in the different regime, we are one funding agency the government and we don’t have that integrated flow of services that’s changing but we need to really [00:35:30] accelerate that because the importance, the human cause, the social cause are too great to ignore.

Ms. Wiens:
We only have a little time left so Sheldon you’re an athlete, you grew up —

Mr. Kennedy:
I was an athlete —

Ms. Wiens:
You’re still, you’re still playing, you said five games a year with other NHL players that’s got to still —

Mr. Orsini:
It’s all relative, he is an athlete.

Ms. Wiens:
It’s all relative – what as a guy who grew up on teams [00:36:00] you’ve mentioned now several times relationships talk to us a little bit from your experience as an athlete about building teams when you put together a Community Hub about how that team finally works together as an athlete, from an athlete’s perspective.

Mr. Kennedy:
Yeah sure. Well, first of all I just want to say how impressed I am with today and I was managed to get to a session yesterday and how important all of your roles are [00:36:30] in building strong communities, this is not the Sheldon, Marry and Steve show, it’s all of our shows and we all have our responsibilities, so I am really honored to be a part of it. To be able to create a strong team, I mean as we know that we hear the old cliche right is that you can have the best team on paper but if you’re not willing to accept your role and understand that your role as somebody that practices and only plays every fourth game is just as important to somebody that’s scoring 50 goals and you don’t [00:37:00] create that understanding as a team, you’re never going to win and we’ve been on teams that have had the best teams on paper but if we were not pulling on a rope together, we weren’t getting anywhere and I think basically what you’re talking about with Community Hubs and you’re talking about integrated practices is really about creating great relationships and understanding that you know what John or Julie that are making the coffee here for individuals in their community every morning at [00:37:30] 7 o’clock in the morning is just as important as the Deputy Minister’s role running the show up here making decisions up here to try to influence more of this and I think that that is where we have to get to it’s not this level, that level, this level, it’s like you know what if Joe and Jill work doing that every morning, you know how many people look to that as their goal to and I think we need to recognize that is being very important and I think that [00:38:00] – and I think ultimately to me that is integrated practice that is integrated practice in my opinion what I have learned through watching people take the risk and walk through their fear of doing it is inclusion, it’s about inclusion, it’s about including people to be around the table and it’s about listening to people but it’s really about what Steve was talking earlier, it’s about accountability that is what integrated [00:38:30] practice creates, is accountability and that’s what we need more of.

Ms. Wiens:
You know Sheldon, you mentioned earlier, I want Steve to end on this note you mentioned earlier something about how important it is to build relationships but also to – you said that the timing was right for the Child Advocacy Center [00:39:00] that everything aligned what is your sense Steve about the timing you know government move slowly, changes don’t happen overnight, what’s your sense of the alignment of forces at this point to really fundamentally change some of the these practices?

Mr. Orsini:
I think with the expansion of social media, the public is more empowered now than they’ve ever been empowered before, is less filters [00:39:30] they can get the message out and I think there is a perceptivity to listen and as Sheldon said you don’t get it right the first time, so we need that evaluation and feedback but we have to measure outcomes. We have way too much focused on reporting of activities, not outcomes and if we don’t involve those that have a voice or impact it then we are not working to the right ends and I think that’s changing, I think it’s accelerating, [00:40:00] the leadership that Karen Pitre in the Community Hubs played, it creates a huge opportunity and I think I just very optimistic when I hear all the efforts being done to integrate, to focus on the individual that they have a greater voice that they are being empowered, I feel very optimistic and I should say it’s an honor to be on stage with Sheldon and yourself and CBC fan, it’s not a plug, but you know but Sheldon you’ve done, I think [00:40:30] your pioneer and I think your story is so impactful that we have to stop to listen to the people we are trying to help. If we don’t listen, we are missing the boat.

Ms. Wiens:
Thank you, thank you both so much.

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